1 1 STATE OF FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF MANAGEMENT SERVICES 2 AGENCY FOR WORKFORCE INNOVATION 3 4 5 IN RE: Subsidized Employment Program, Rule No. 60BB-10.001, 6 60BB-10.002, 60BB-10.003, 60BB-10.004, 60BB-10.005, 7 60BB-10.006, 60BB-10.007, 60BB-10.008 AND 60BB-10.009. 8 ____________________________/ 9 10 11 RULE HEARING 12 February 26, 2010 13 9:04 a.m. 14 Agency for Workforce Innovation 15 107 East Madison Street 16 Tallahassee, Florida 17 18 Reported by: 19 RAY D. CONVERY, Court Reporter For the Record Reporting, Inc. 20 1500 Mahan Drive - Suite 140 Tallahassee, Florida, 32308 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. LANDSBERG: Good morning. This Jim 3 Landsberg for the Agency for Workforce Innovation. 4 Since we are just now at about 9:00 o'clock, we'll 5 give one more minute to make sure others have the 6 chance to join in. 7 (Pause.) 8 MR. LANDSBERG: Good morning. I am Jim 9 Landsberg, an attorney with the Agency for 10 Workforce Innovation. We are here today for a 11 public hearing on Chapter 67BB-10, Florida 12 Administrative Code, entitled Subsidized Employment 13 Program. Notice of this public hearing was 14 published in the Florida Administrative Weekly on 15 February 5th, 2010. The rule text and the forms 16 incorporated in the rule are available on the 17 Agency's web site under the "Florida back to work" 18 link. It is 9:05 a.m. on Friday, February 26th, 19 2010. 20 Before we commence with this public hearing, I 21 would like to introduce the following people from 22 the Agency for Workforce Innovation. We have here 23 present with us Mike Lynch, Sandy McLeod, Sam 24 Arcangeli, Holly Carson, Erica Mott, Karen Bishop, 25 and I think that's it. We also have here a court FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 3 1 reporter. So everyone knows, this will be 2 transcribed and a record will be made of the public 3 hearing. 4 I'll now discuss the format and the process of 5 the hearing. The purpose of a public hearing is to 6 provide affected persons and other members of the 7 public a reasonable opportunity to present 8 evidence, argument and oral statements with 9 reasonable conditions and limitations by the Agency 10 to avoid duplication, irrelevant comments, 11 unnecessary delay or disruption of the proceeding. 12 For those who are participating by speaker 13 phone, each time you speak, please state your name 14 and the organization you represent. It is 15 important that you identify yourself each time you 16 speak as this hearing is being transcribed by a 17 court reporter. We request that only one person 18 speak at a time. 19 Procedurally, we will start at the beginning 20 of the rule, identify each section and ask whether 21 there is any testimony on that section. 22 Are there any questions at this point? 23 Very well then. I will proceed by going 24 through the rule and identifying each section. We 25 will start with 60BB-10.001, Purpose, Intent and FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 4 1 General Principles. Is there any testimony on this 2 section? 3 Hearing none, I will go to the next section, 4 which is 10.002, Definitions. Is there any 5 testimony on this section? 6 MS. GREENFIELD: Sorry, no. That was Valerie 7 Greenfield. 8 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, Ms. Greenfield, and 9 you are from Legal Services, correct? 10 MS. GREENFIELD: I'm sorry, Florida Legal 11 Services, yes. I inadvertently said uh. 12 MR. LANDSBERG: Hearing no testimony on that 13 section, we will go to Section 10.003, Participant 14 Eligibility Requirements. Is there any testimony 15 on this section? 16 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield of 17 Florida Legal Services and I do have a question 18 about one of the definitions. 19 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes, ma'am. Please go ahead. 20 MS. GREENFIELD: At Section (3)(d), the rule 21 specifies that the persons that can participate 22 must be a pregnant woman in the ninth month of 23 pregnancy or the third trimester of pregnancy if 24 her physician restricts her from work, or a parent 25 or caretaker relative of an unmarried dependent FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 5 1 child under 18 or a full-time student who is under 2 the age of 19 and who resides in the home. 3 We recognize that the Department is -- or that 4 the Agency is probably attempting to mimic the TANF 5 criteria by using that definition, but we thought 6 it was a little odd that the person has to be 7 restricted from work, that is, the pregnant person 8 has to be restricted from work when in fact this a 9 subsidized work program. 10 We think that it's probably appropriate to 11 allow women in their ninth month of pregnancy 12 and/or third trimester of pregnancy into the 13 program, but we wonder about that extra part of the 14 definition that the physician had to have 15 restricted them from work. 16 MR. LYNCH: Is that allowable under federal 17 rules? This is Mike Lynch. 18 MS. MOTT: I think what happened, we took -- 19 my name is Erica Mott with the Agency for Workforce 20 Innovation. To receive temporary cash assistance, 21 which is the cash payments, the definition is a 22 pregnant woman in their third trimester restricted 23 from work, and I think you are correct. In this 24 program, for TANF, we do want to meet the 25 definition of family, but what we probably need to FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 6 1 do is remove the restriction that the physician 2 restrict from work. So we'll take that into 3 consideration. 4 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you very much for that 5 testimony, Ms. Greenfield. 6 Are there any other comments on this section? 7 Hearing none, we will go to Section 10.004, 8 How to Participate. Is there any testimony on this 9 section? 10 MS. HUDDLESTON: Yes. This is Cindy 11 Huddleston from Florida Legal Services. Actually I 12 just had a comment. I wanted to thank you for 13 clarifying that this program is going to be a 14 voluntary program because those were some concerns 15 that we voiced during the last public hearing. So 16 thank you. 17 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield 18 from Florida Legal Services. I had a question, a 19 need for clarification on the current TANF 20 participants, Section (1) under that part of the 21 rule. It appears that, even if you're a current 22 participant, you'll be required to sign the 23 agreement that says you'll decline to apply for 24 TANF. So in effect it seems as though maybe they'd 25 be leaving the TANF program, and I was just FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 7 1 wondering in the Agency had thought through how 2 that would work for larger families who might be 3 eligible, on top of their wages, for some amount of 4 TANF especially considering that the subsidized 5 employment program only guarantees a minimum wage 6 and not the same wages, benefits and working 7 conditions as are necessarily provided to other 8 employees because that part of the rule was 9 eliminated from the original draft. 10 MS. MOTT: This is Erica Mott with the Agency 11 for Workforce Innovation. The program in the 12 Florida statute is designed to divert individuals 13 from cash, like cash severance benefit, which is 14 also a diversion. Individuals who are receiving 15 cash can be included in the population, but we are 16 diverting them from that benefit. So yes, we have 17 thought through that, and yes, even recipients have 18 to sign the agreement. 19 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield with 20 Florida Legal Services. Okay. Thank you. I just 21 wanted to get clear on whether it was a diversion, 22 and thank you for answering that. 23 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, Ms. Greenfield. 24 Are there any further comments on Section 25 10.004? FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 8 1 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield. 2 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes, ma'am. 3 MS. GREENFIELD: Again, I have a comment on I 4 guess it's Section (3) where the forms AWI -- 5 sorry, this is Valerie Greenfield of Florida Legal 6 Services -- where, at Section (3) where the form 7 AWI SEP 0005(c) is incorporated. Let me go over to 8 that form. I wrote a note to myself. Please 9 forgive me. It said something about the form only 10 requires pregnancy. Oh, on your -- now I know what 11 I meant. On the form, when it's determining your 12 eligibility, it says, "Is the applicant a parent or 13 the subsidized relative of a child or a child -- or 14 children under 18 or 19 in school living in the 15 home or is the applicant a pregnant woman?" This 16 is at Question 1 underneath the box. So I guess at 17 this point I could point out that your form only 18 requires that the applicant or participant be 19 pregnant as opposed to pregnant in the third 20 trimester and restricted from work in their last 21 month of pregnancy. If so, if you rethink that 22 other part of the rule concerning the physician 23 restrictions, this form would not need to be 24 changed, but if you keep in the restriction, you 25 might want to make this form consistent with the FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 9 1 rule. 2 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency for 3 Workforce Innovation. Thank you for bringing that 4 to our attention and we'll take that into 5 consideration. 6 MR. LANDSBERG: Are there any further comments 7 on Section 10.004? 8 Hearing none, we will proceed to Section 9 10.005, which is Support Services. Is there any 10 testimony on this section? 11 Hearing none, we will go to Section 10.006, 12 Employer Participation. Is there any testimony on 13 this section? 14 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield, 15 Florida Legal Services. I had a question about 16 Section (3)(f). It says that you will specify in 17 the contract with the employer the time period for 18 reimbursing the employer. I had a question about 19 how long someone can be in the subsidized 20 employment program. What's the maximum time limit 21 that you'd be reimbursing the employer? 22 MR. LYNCH: Good morning. This is Mike Lynch. 23 The subsidized employment program, Florida Back to 24 Work Program, technically will end September 30th, 25 2010 because the funding for the program only FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 10 1 extends to that period of time. So at the current 2 time it's only through September 30th, 2010. 3 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 4 Florida Legal Services. So you're saying that, 5 because of the funding, everybody -- the period for 6 reimbursement would naturally have to end by 7 September, 2010? 8 MR. LYNCH: That is correct. 9 MR. LANDSBERG: This is Val Greenfield again. 10 If funding were continued, has the Agency 11 anticipated some sort of maximum time that someone 12 could be in this program and their employer be 13 subsidized, or would that all depend on funding? 14 MR. LYNCH: It would partially depend on 15 funding. We have not really thought that one 16 through. Right now we are just trying to get the 17 back to work program, this initial program effort 18 up and running, but certainly that is something, if 19 we extend beyond September 30th, 2010, certainly we 20 want to look at that, what is an appropriate period 21 of duration. 22 MR. LANDSBERG: Are there any further comments 23 or testimony on Section 10.006? 24 MR. LIPSKY: Yes. This is Steve Lipsky with 25 FloridaWorks, Region 9, and my question regards FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 11 1 Item No. (3), and I was wondering if you could 2 comment on the use of the word "agent," where it 3 says, "The regional workforce board or its agent," 4 if the intention of the rule is to establish 5 principle-agency relationships between the 6 workforce board and the employers, between the 7 workforce board and any contracted service provider 8 that the workforce board uses to deliver the 9 services. 10 MR. LYNCH: This is Section (3)? 11 MS. MOTT: This is Erica Mott from the Agency 12 for Workforce Innovation. Can you identify exactly 13 where you're looking at, please? 14 MR. LIPSKY: Yes, I am on -- it's -- looking 15 at the rule, it is page six. It is No. (3) that is 16 in closed parens, that starts, "The regional 17 workforce board or its agent shall enter into a 18 subsidized employment contract with each 19 participating employer." Again, I'd like some 20 information about the use of the word "agent." 21 MR. LYNCH: Yes, this is Mike lynch. The use 22 of the word "agent" is in some cases the regional 23 workforce board may choose to select a third party, 24 a third party to actually negotiate and execute the 25 contract with the employers. In fact, I believe FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 12 1 you guys are thinking about doing just that in 2 Region 9. 3 MR. LIPSKY: Yes, sir. 4 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency for 5 Workforce Innovation. We also have to take into 6 consideration the fact that some regions do 7 contract out programs. So, while some regions are 8 operating programs like TANF programs directly, 9 some have program providers, so -- 10 MR. LIPSKY: Again, this is Steve Lipsky with 11 Region 9. So again, is it the rule's intention to 12 create a principle-agent relationship and the 13 incumbent liability that goes with such a 14 relationship, you know, in this program for the 15 regional workforce boards contracting directly with 16 the employers or the regional workforce board 17 contracting with a third-party services provider? 18 MR. LYNCH: This is Mike Lynch. No, the 19 intent of this section of the rule I believe is 20 simply to provide the regional workforce board with 21 flexibility on how they want to establish a 22 contracting model to implement the program. 23 Ultimate liability rests with the State down to the 24 regional workforce board level and ultimately to 25 the employers or the third-party agent, but the FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 13 1 intent is not to relieve the regional workforce 2 board from any liability for ultimately the costs 3 of the program. 4 MR. LIPSKY: So the intent -- again, Steve 5 Lipsky with Region 9. The intent you said is not 6 to relieve the regional workforce board of 7 liability? 8 MR. LYNCH: That is correct. It is not the 9 intent to do that. We cannot do that. 10 MR. LIPSKY: Understood. Again, Steve Lipsky 11 with Region 9. Has any consideration been given, 12 given the nature of this program where a 13 considerable number of people, you know, 14 potentially will be employed, how this particular 15 part of the rule may generate increased third-party 16 liability for regional workforce boards? 17 MR. LYNCH: I'm not real clear on what you're 18 trying to tell us here. I'm not understanding it. 19 Can you help me out? 20 MR. LIPSKY: Well, again, Steve Lipsky for 21 Region 9. If again we had a situation where an 22 individual was at a work site, something were to 23 happen -- let's say an individual was operating a 24 piece of machinery, injures another individual, if 25 a principle-agent relationship exists, does that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 14 1 injured party not only have a financial claim 2 against the work site but also a financial claim 3 against the regional workforce board given, you 4 know, the legal interpretations of principle and 5 agent relationships? 6 MR. LANDSBERG: Mr. Lipsky, this is Jim 7 Landsberg. At this point I don't think it would be 8 appropriate for the Agency to try to give legal 9 advice on general situations like that to the 10 region. I think that, if individual circumstances 11 arise, then we need to work through those at this 12 point, and I need to -- to go back to Mr. Lynch's 13 comments about the intent of that section that you 14 referenced, that the intent is not to release the 15 region from its sub-recipient responsibilities or 16 liability for operating the subsidized employment 17 program. 18 MR. LIPSKY: Again, certainly -- again, Steve 19 Lipsky with Region 9. I'm certainly not asking 20 that you would provide legal advice. I know that 21 would be inappropriate. Again, I'm really just 22 trying to understand what the intent was by using 23 the word "agent." 24 That all being said, I know our board counsel 25 has expressed -- would like to probably present FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 15 1 some comments for consideration. Am I correct in 2 understanding that the deadline for submitting 3 those comments is today? 4 MR. LANDSBERG: I don't think that the 5 deadline is today, sir. 6 MR. LIPSKY: Okay. If anyone can confirm what 7 that deadline is? 8 MR. LANDSBERG: It's 21 days, sir. 9 MR. LYNCH: Twenty-one days from the hearing? 10 MR. LIPSKY: Okay. Twenty-one days from 11 February the 5th? 12 MR. LANDSBERG: From today. 13 MR. LIPSKY: Twenty-one days from today, okay. 14 Twenty-one days. 15 MR. LYNCH: Of course, the sooner the better, 16 Steve. This is Mike. 17 MR. LIPSKY: Yes. Thank you very much. 18 MR. LYNCH: Certainly. 19 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you. 20 Is there any further testimony or comments on 21 this section? 22 Hearing none, we will move to Section 10.007, 23 Position Requirements. Is there any testimony on 24 this section? 25 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield of FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 16 1 Florida Legal Services. I just wanted to comment 2 that we appreciate that you inserted into the rule 3 Section (1)(b), that the employer be required to 4 meet the same health and safety and 5 nondiscrimination standards. We also think that it 6 was a good idea to put in your Section (c), the 7 nondisplacement provision. We think those are both 8 really good protections. 9 We did note and had a question about the fact 10 that you removed from the rule what was in the 11 original draft, a requirement to provide the same 12 wages, benefits and working conditions as are 13 provided to other employees who are performing 14 substantially equivalent jobs. What would be 15 the -- what was the Agency's thinking in removing 16 that provision? 17 MR. LYNCH: Well, I think, number one, the 18 federal rule requires that. This is Mike Lynch. I 19 mean, that must be done anyway. I'm not sure why 20 we removed it, but certainly they would have to pay 21 the same wages and benefits as paid to anybody else 22 in a similar job or position within that employer. 23 Are you thinking we should also put it back in 24 the rule? 25 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield from FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 17 1 Florida Legal Services. I think it would be great 2 if you put it back in the rule because it does 3 apply -- 4 MR. LYNCH: We have no issue with that, that's 5 fine. 6 MS. MOTT: It's already in there. 7 MR. LYNCH: It's in the rule? Where at? 8 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency for 9 Workforce Innovation. I'm seeing it. 10 MR. LANDSBERG: Ms. Greenfield, could you 11 refer to 10 point -- this is Jim Landsberg, I'm 12 sorry, from the Agency for Workforce Innovation. 13 Could you please refer to Section 10.007(1)(b). 14 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 15 Florida Legal Services. Yes, I see that it says, 16 "meet the same health, safety and nondiscrimination 17 standards that apply to other individuals," but 18 what was removed was providing the same wages -- 19 MR. LYNCH: And benefits, yes. 20 MS. GREENFIELD: -- as are provided to other 21 employees. That might cover -- (b) might cover 22 working conditions, but wages and benefits seems to 23 be omitted. 24 MR. LYNCH: We will put that back in the rule. 25 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield with FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 18 1 Florida Legal Services. That would be great if you 2 put that back in. 3 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, Ms. Greenfield. 4 This is the Jim Landsberg, and we will consider 5 your comment. 6 Is there any further testimony or comments on 7 Section 10.007? 8 Hearing none, we will proceed to Section 9 10.008, Cost Sharing or Matching. Is there any 10 testimony on this section? 11 MS. GERMAN: Excuse me. Jennifer German, 12 Region 4, Gulf Coast Workforce Board. Can I get 13 you to back up for just a bit? 14 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes. 15 MS. GERMAN: My question has to do with 10.007 16 and Item (c), "A subsidized position cannot be 17 created if another individual is on layoff from the 18 same or a substantially equivalent job." What is 19 the timeframe on that? In other words, if a person 20 was laid off as a widget maker six months earlier 21 and the employer wants a subsidized position for a 22 widget maker now, was that layoff long enough ago 23 for that position to be eligible or what? 24 MR. LYNCH: Jennifer, this is Mike Lynch. 25 We've discussed this at length, and the actual FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 19 1 wording is, "A subsidized employment position 2 cannot be created if another individual is on 3 layoff from the same or any substantially 4 equivalent job." The definition of that means that 5 the person laid off from that job has an 6 expectation that they are going to go back to that 7 job within six months. It does not exclude you 8 working -- putting a subsidized position just 9 because somebody has had -- an employer has had a 10 layoff. The distinction is the employer could have 11 laid somebody off, but as long as that individual 12 does not have the expectation of returning to work 13 within six months, you know, they're not violating 14 the rule here. Does that help out? 15 MS. GERMAN: No. 16 MR. LYNCH: No? I mean, the reality is that 17 over the last year and a half, all employers have 18 had, because of the economy, the downturn, to have 19 layoffs. So in all situations you're going to have 20 probably working with employers who have 21 experienced layoffs. The point is, you know, an 22 employer cannot purposely lay off somebody simply 23 to put a subsidized position in there, nor can you 24 subsidize a job if somebody has been laid off and 25 has been told that they have an expectation they're FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 20 1 going to be recalled to that job. 2 MS. GERMAN: I am very clear on the part about 3 not laying off in order to create a subsidized 4 position slot. What I'm not clear on is how we're 5 supposed to determine that someone does not have a 6 reasonable expectation of returning. 7 MR. LYNCH: Well, I think the definition, 8 which is a U.S. Department of Labor definition, is 9 an individual on layoff status, that that employer 10 should have knowledge and should have something 11 saying that they've informed that employee that 12 they have an expectation to be recalled or returned 13 to that work. 14 MS. GERMAN: Okay. Thank you, Mike. 15 MR. LYNCH: You're welcome. 16 MR. LANDSBERG: Is there any further testimony 17 on Section 10.007? 18 MR. LYNCH: I've got one last comment. This 19 is Mike Lynch again. The employer information 20 sheet that every employer must sign has a statement 21 that the employer must sign saying that they -- the 22 position that is going to be subsidized, that no 23 one is on layoff status from that position. So 24 that's -- there is documentation that the employer 25 is attesting to that fact. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 21 1 MR. LANDSBERG: Hearing no further comments on 2 Section 10.007, we will now move again to Section 3 10.008. Is there any testimony on this section? 4 Hearing none, we will move to Section 10.009, 5 which is Reapplying for Temporary Cash Assistance 6 Due to an Unanticipated Emergency. Is there any 7 testimony on this section? 8 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield of 9 Florida Legal Services. I had two comments but 10 also first a clarifying question. Is it the intent 11 of the rule that, if you reapply for TANF after the 12 second six months you're in subsidized employment, 13 you would not have to repay and you could 14 concurrently collect TANF and be in the subsidized 15 employment program? 16 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency for 17 Workforce Innovation. There are a couple of 18 different questions -- I'm hearing two different 19 questions. One is, what is the definition of 20 service, because we have to assume that, you know, 21 when they're diverted with a service, it's six 22 months later that they can technically reapply for 23 cash assistance, if they do not have an emergency, 24 without having to pay it back. Could they 25 technically be in both programs? It is a FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 22 1 possibility if they meet cash assistance standards. 2 That is probably not the main purpose of the 3 program since we're trying to divert the customer. 4 Our goal will be to help them, you know, progress 5 forward so they don't need both at the same time, 6 but is it technically a possibility? There is 7 nothing that I can see that would preclude that. 8 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 9 Florida Legal Services. Yes, thank you, that was 10 one of my questions. And obviously it would be 11 based on an emergency -- I mean, they would be 12 probably be evaluated even for an emergency at that 13 time and a decision made. 14 MS. MOTT: That is correct. I mean, when the 15 individual discloses that they are reapplying for 16 cash or they are sent to the regional workforce 17 board because they have applied for cash and they 18 have to have a determination of the emergency, they 19 will be looking at the circumstances the customer 20 is in. 21 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 22 Florida Legal Services. It sounds like it's 23 actually two determinations. One is, is there an 24 emergency that would permit them not to have to 25 repay services? And the second determination might FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 23 1 be, are they within the first six months of having 2 gone -- been diverted? Is that correct? 3 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency for 4 Workforce Innovation. If they are not within -- if 5 they are not within the first six months of 6 receiving a service, a diversion service, then 7 there is no need for an emergency determination. 8 The only thing DCF has to do is determine if 9 they're income eligible, the regular eligibility 10 standards. So if they have passed six months from 11 the date of diversion services, all the -- DCF is 12 going to look at them as a regular application 13 process. If they are within six months of getting 14 that diversion service, they're going to be -- the 15 regional workforce board is going to have to review 16 whether or not they meet an emergency criteria. 17 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield with 18 Florida Legal Services. It looks like the rule 19 actually says that you agreed not to apply for 20 temporary cash within the first six months of 21 beginning the program, and then you have an 22 emergency, but you do apply for temporary cash 23 assistance. It's not clear that the six months is 24 counted from the delivery of a service which is a 25 bit confusing to me because, under the subsidized FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 24 1 employment program, you can actually receive 2 support services. So how would you distinguish 3 whether they're receiving a TANF-funded service or 4 a service connected with subsidized employment? I 5 mean, I'm not sure where the six months would 6 start. The rule seems to suggest that we're going 7 to start counting six months from the date you 8 apply -- you go into the subsidized employment 9 program, and if you apply for temporary cash 10 assistance, that is, the cash rather than a 11 service, within the first six months, then we're 12 going to look at the emergency and then we're going 13 to look at whether you have to repay a service. 14 I have a couple of questions -- excuse me, I 15 have a separate question about service also, but I 16 just am trying to get clear on the triggers. 17 MS. MOTT: This is Erica from the Agency. I 18 think what it's basically saying is, that date 19 starts when you are placed with an employer because 20 that's what it says. That's what we are 21 establishing as that beginning point. 22 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield from 23 Florida Legal Services. And what is the trigger 24 within the first six months from that starting date 25 that will cause the Agency to have to look at FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 25 1 whether someone would repay? Is the trigger an 2 application for TANF cash or is the trigger the 3 delivery of some kind of support service within 4 that six-month period? 5 MS. MOTT: Application for cash is the only 6 thing that is contingent upon either an emergency 7 or a repayment. 8 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield. 9 Okay, thank you. Then I'm clear on that. 10 So I have a followup question on the service. 11 If they apply for cash assistance within that 12 six-month period and they didn't have an emergency 13 that obviates them from having to repay, then what 14 they do have to repay, based on the rule, is the 15 value of services provided to the family. Would 16 those be -- well, what services would those be, 17 support services? 18 MS. MOTT: Yes. If I am not mistaken -- and 19 we will have to go back and double-check the 20 information -- the Florida statute describes it as 21 diversion services. It is going to be those 22 services offered for the person to begin employment 23 with the employer. It is not necessarily ongoing 24 services to the individual receiving employment. 25 We will have to take a look at that, the definition FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 26 1 in the law. 2 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 3 Florida Legal Services. So at this time we 4 don't -- you wouldn't be able to describe what 5 kinds of services, diversion services those might 6 be, or could you give me examples and how they 7 would be valued and what it could potentially cost? 8 MS. MOTT: Okay. This is Erica from the 9 Agency for Workforce Innovation -- oh, I sound like 10 a broken record. I'll be glad to provide you with 11 examples. That's a great question. For example, 12 prior to placement or -- prior to placement, we're 13 going to place an individual with an employer who 14 requires specific types of tools. We're going to 15 offer the customers short-term, non-recurring 16 benefits to begin employment which may include a 17 tool belt, uniform, shoes. Those are the diversion 18 services for the customer to begin employment with 19 the employer. It will be those -- that's the value 20 of those services that will be assessed if the 21 individual does not have an emergency and reapplies 22 for cash assistance prior to the six months from 23 that begin date of employment. 24 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield from 25 Florida Legal Services. Thank you. That makes it FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 27 1 a little clearer. 2 You would you agree then that it does not 3 include the support services they may have gotten, 4 like transportation or child care which enabled 5 them to participate in the subsidized employment 6 program? 7 MS. MOTT: We will double-check the 8 information that is provided into the Florida law. 9 If I am not mistaken, the law talks specifically 10 about the diversion services. So, once they are 11 placed with the employer, if they are getting 12 support services to continue employment, to my 13 knowledge it does not include those support 14 services after employment, but we will double-check 15 that information, those definitions. 16 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of 17 Florida Legal Services. Would you be able to get 18 back to me by an e-mail message to let me know the 19 answer to that question in order to give Florida 20 Legal Services an opportunity to comment if -- on 21 the answer if necessary? 22 MR. LANDSBERG: Ms. Greenfield, we can send an 23 e-mail to you and you could provide comments by 24 responding to that e-mail if you would like. 25 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Val Greenfield of FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 28 1 Florida Legal Services. Thank you very much. That 2 would be very helpful. 3 My other comment was going to be about the 4 eight-month proration. I was worried that, if it 5 was a very large amount of reimbursement, that the 6 individual might need more time, but given that it 7 might only be the value of tools, a tool belt, 8 uniforms, shoes, it might not be an unreasonable 9 expectation that they be able to repay it in eight 10 months, but that would be my last remaining comment 11 on that section that, if it was a large amount and 12 they were now on cash assistance, they wouldn't be 13 in much of a position to be able to repay quickly. 14 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, Ms. Greenfield. 15 This is Jim Landsberg. We will consider that 16 comment. 17 MS. JAMES: This is Christina James from 18 FloridaWorks. Could I please have an e-mail, an 19 answer also e-mailed to me, please, Erica? 20 MS. MOTT: We can definitely copy you on the 21 information provided to Florida Legal Services. 22 MS. JAMES: I appreciate that. Thank you. 23 MR. LANDSBERG: Are there any further comments 24 on Section 10.09? 25 At this point, what we need to do is make sure FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 29 1 we have an accurate record of those attending by 2 telephone. I'm going to go through the people that 3 I know we have on the line, and if I don't 4 recognize you, could you please do so after I go 5 through these names. I know that we have, from 6 Florida Legal Services, Valerie Greenfield and 7 Cindy Huddleston. We have, from Regional Workforce 8 Board 9, Mr. Steve Lipsky. 9 MR. GAVARETTE: Jose Gavarette, also Region 10 9. 11 MR. LANDSBERG: I'm sorry. Could you repeat 12 that? 13 MR. GAVARETTE: Jose Gavarette and Christina 14 Jaynes, Suzanne Levings, and Emory Bohr. That's 15 all. 16 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, sir. 17 MS. MARTIN: We have from Region 19 Ann 18 Martin, Aline Armas, Alan Grimes and Donna 19 Doubleday. 20 MS. STONE: Region 11, Laurie Stone, Donna 21 Benson and Ted Young. 22 MS. GERMAN: Region 4, Jennifer German. 23 MS. CAMPBELL-DOMINECK: Region 17, Stacy 24 Campbell-Domineck and Mark Thomas. 25 MS. SALVE: Region 18, Claire Salve and Leslie FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 30 1 Loveless. 2 MR. LANDSBERG: Region 18, could you please 3 repeat that one more time for the court reporter? 4 MS. SALVE: Region 18 is Claire Salve and 5 Leslie Loveless. 6 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you. 7 MS. HAMILTON: Region 16, David Hamilton. 8 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, Mr. Hamilton. 9 MS. FISHER: 21 region, Joyce Fisher. 10 MS. CHRISMAN: Region 12, Brenda Chrisman. 11 MS. KAVEHERSI: Region 23, Cheri Kavehersi. 12 MS. GORMAN: Region 5, Desiree Gorman. 13 MR. LANDSBERG: Are there any others that we 14 haven't recognized? 15 MR. HAWKINS: Region 21, Gary Hawkins. 16 MR. LANDSBERG: Thank you, sir. 17 Are there any others? 18 Very well. We have proceeded through each 19 section of the rule, and at this point I'd like to 20 offer once more, if there are followup comments or 21 testimony on any portions of the rule, we can open 22 it up to that. 23 MS. HUDDLESTON: This is Cindy Huddleston from 24 Florida Legal Services. I am curious about, given 25 the uncertainty about the continuation of federal FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 31 1 funding, whether there is more afoot on the State's 2 part to seek funding in the Legislature? 3 MR. LYNCH: This is Mike Lynch. We would love 4 to get the Legislature to come up with revenue, but 5 as you I'm sure fully understand, revenues are 6 extremely limited, so I think our better bet is to 7 get -- Congress is considering extending the 8 program beyond September 30th, 2010 and adding 9 additional dollars to the pot. So that's our best 10 bet. 11 MS. HUDDLESTON: This is Cindy Huddleston. 12 So, as of right now, there isn't anything that you 13 know of going on to get the state funding? 14 MR. LYNCH: That is correct. 15 MS. HUDDLESTON: Okay. Thanks. 16 MS. GERMAN: This is Jennifer German. 17 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes, ma'am. 18 MS. GERMAN: Okay. I'm trying again. I keep 19 hitting my mute button. This is Jennifer German. 20 On a related note, Mike, when are we going to get 21 our NFAs? 22 MR. LYNCH: We are expecting approval or we 23 have requested advance grant award from the 24 Department of Health and Human Services in 25 Washington, D.C. The request has be up there for FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 32 1 going on three weeks now. We have made phone calls 2 and inquiries on when are we going to get approval. 3 We expect it any day, and as soon as we get it, we 4 are ready and prepared to issue NFAs that same day. 5 So hopefully today will be the day, we're hoping. 6 MS. GERMAN: Well, I really hope so. 7 MR. LYNCH: Yes, ma'am. 8 MR. LANDSBERG: Are there any further 9 comments? 10 MR. LIPSKY: This is Steve Lipsky with 11 FloridaWorks Region 9. The transcript of this 12 hearing, excuse me, when will it be available and 13 how might one obtain it? 14 MR. LANDSBERG: We estimate approximately two 15 weeks to receive the transcript, and we can provide 16 that to you by e-mail if you would like. 17 MR. LIPSKY: Again, Steve Lipsky. Would you 18 like us to submit our e-mail addresses to you, Mr. 19 Landsberg, or how would you prefer that we handle 20 that? 21 MR. LANDSBERG: That would be perfectly fine, 22 sir. My e-mail is james.landsberg@flaawi.com. 23 MR. LIPSKY: Thank you very much. 24 MS. DOUBLEDAY: This is Donna Doubleday from 25 Region 19. Is it possible to have that transcript FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 33 1 posted on the Florida Back To Work site? 2 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes, that's a very good idea. 3 We can do that. Thank you for that suggestion. 4 MS. GREENFIELD: This is Valerie Greenfield of 5 Florida Legal Services. We just wanted to say that 6 we would like to be kept apprised of all further 7 developments with respect to this rule. 8 MR. LANDSBERG: Yes, ma'am. 9 Are there any further comments at this time? 10 Very well. We would like to thank everyone 11 for attending this public hearing for your comments 12 and your testimony, and at this point the hearing 13 is closed. 14 (Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded at 15 9:49 a.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491 34 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 5 I, RAY D. CONVERY, do hereby certify that I 6 was authorized to and did report the foregoing 7 proceedings, and that the transcript, pages 2 through 8 33, is a true and correct record of my stenographic 9 notes. 10 11 Dated this_______day of______________, 2010 at 12 Tallahassee, Leon County, Florida. 13 14 ____________________________ 15 RAY D. CONVERY 16 Court Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE RECORD REPORTING TALLAHASSEE FLORIDA 850.222.5491